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Ian's avatar
Aug 25Edited

I'd really like to argue against the "no future civilisations" point, for the main reason that collapse itself acts as a pressure release valve, and that you dramatically underestimate (some) ways nature can recover.

You state that "Today’s industrial societies do not have the luxury of large, widespread, and fully-intact ecological havens from which to restart. Our blasting past the natural environmental carrying capacity of our planet and overshooting numerous planetary boundaries have significantly altered the biosphere upon which our existence depends. The planet’s climate appears to be destabilising at a rate unprecedented in our species’ history; a sixth mass extinction seems well underway, with species loss rates thousands of times faster than prehistoric records show; global food production is threatened by soil loss and lack of organic life to sustain its fertility; aquifers are being drawn down significantly faster than they can recharge; marine food webs are threatened by ocean acidification. The toxins and pollutants from our massive industrialisation and expansion have pushed the planetary sinks that have served to absorb our waste beyond their ability to continue to do so."

So I'll take the main arguments from there.

1. Today’s industrial societies do not have the luxury of large, widespread, and fully-intact ecological havens from which to restart. Good point, but for how much longer? Post- collapse, with an absolute cessation of human pressure, recovery is rather swift. The best natural experiment is Chernobyl. Researchers running aerial surveys of the exclusion zone from 1987–1997 found animal numbers were already comparable to nearby uncontaminated nature reserves, with wolf densities more than seven times greater than in reserves — this after just over a decade of human absence. Four decades on, the zone is now home to flourishing populations of wolves, foxes, Eurasian lynx, elk and wild boar, with brown bears and European bison having returned, largely because the single greatest factor in the transformation is the complete cessation of human development and resource exploitation — the end of industrial logging, large-scale farming, and hunting removed the most severe constraint on wildlife populations. So animal populations and "wild feel" can come back surprisingly fast once the pressure (hunting, farming, habitat conversion) actually stops.

Middle tier: ecosystem function (soil, vegetation structure, biodiversity) — decades to about half a century. The most-cited systematic study here is Jones & Schmitz (2009, PLOS ONE), a synthesis of 240 independent studies of ecosystem recovery from major disturbance. Their finding directly contradicts the "centuries or never" assumption: most ecosystems globally can, given the removal of pressure, recover from very major perturbations on timescales of decades to half-centuries, not centuries.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2680978/

even for the havens of biodiversity we call forests: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-026-10365-2

"Abundance and diversity regained more than 90% and composition approximately 75% similarity to old-growth forests within 30 years, but full recovery takes several decades."

this goes double with "a sixth mass extinction seems well underway, with species loss rates thousands of times faster than prehistoric records show", as forests regrow, previously "doomed" species may well get their habitat back. Also, to be a heartless bastard, only a rather smal lfraction of those extinctions really matter to human civilisation as a whole (Eg a salamander being lost in the amazon doesn't affect a japanese civilisation at all)

"global food production is threatened by soil loss and lack of organic life to sustain its fertility"

sure, but again, recovery. 2 factors are at work here, 1. What happens when food demand is reduced by a factor of (generously) 20? I'd assume our fields would be much less stressed. Second, topsoil recovers surprinsingly fast once you fallow it! one study i saw estimated 75% recovery in about 120 years. Ditto for the organic food webs.

Furthermore, a significant portion of topsoil can last a hell of a long time, even at CURRENT depletion rates (orders of magnitude higher compared to the old ways which we will hopefully go back to)

https://ourworldindata.org/soil-lifespans

"aquifers are being drawn down significantly faster than they can recharge;" except preindustrial civilisations never used aquifers at all?

"The toxins and pollutants from our massive industrialisation and expansion have pushed the planetary sinks that have served to absorb our waste beyond their ability to continue to do so."" This is true, but I'd argue that runoff into deep ocean or deep soil lowers their burden rather fast too, especially when exposure stops, even if they do not chemically break down they are too far away to matter.

as for climate, have you seen this paper?

https://bg.copernicus.org/articles/17/2987/2020/

"This warming effect is difficult to constrain due to high uncertainty in the efficacy of ocean heat uptake. Overall, the most likely value of ZEC on multi-decadal timescales is close to zero, consistent with previous model experiments and simple theory."

In a word, collapse is better for future civilisations.

Mike Roberts's avatar

You've got it about right, but why all the bargaining, like:

"pockets of resilient communities that adapt may remain"

"some communities might endure"

"we have a limited amount of personal agency where we as individuals and perhaps even as small communities can respond within the descent we are experiencing"

What could communities do to respond to collapse of civilisation, especially to endure? I've yet to find some ideas that make sense to me.

On this, did you actually mean what you wrote:

"it may be the last to have the opportunity to rebuild and run the experiment again."

It suggests that this civilisation will have the opportunity to rebuild and run the experiment again. Did you mean that it may be the first to not have that opportunity?

I find this to be so true:

"it never was a choice and we were simply beholden to the Maximum Power Principle without agency of any kind."

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